Comments on: On Harris v. Lucas http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/ An Unofficial University of Michigan Basketball Blog Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:07:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: ToBlav http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58306 ToBlav Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:52:28 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58306 It's hard to go apples to apples so I don't think this argument is going to reach a consensus (which is fine). I can't even argue much with the fact that my previous point was only a 'sort of'. Dylan's point of the point guards correlating to success in the final four games is fairly convincing. However, if Manny is a point at the wing, and other teams don't have that, is there enough of a sample to say the needed point play can't come from the wing? Now forgive me in advance, but the strength of a strength seems to be what matters according to what I read above. So it might be the disparity in strength of a key skill more than which skills they have that matters most. Maybe a stonger move to the rim or three point shot matters most if the opposite skill is closer to even. It’s hard to go apples to apples so I don’t think this argument is going to reach a consensus (which is fine). I can’t even argue much with the fact that my previous point was only a ’sort of’. Dylan’s point of the point guards correlating to success in the final four games is fairly convincing. However, if Manny is a point at the wing, and other teams don’t have that, is there enough of a sample to say the needed point play can’t come from the wing?

Now forgive me in advance, but the strength of a strength seems to be what matters according to what I read above. So it might be the disparity in strength of a key skill more than which skills they have that matters most. Maybe a stonger move to the rim or three point shot matters most if the opposite skill is closer to even.

]]> By: Dylan http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58270 Dylan Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:28:12 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58270 That's an interesting point Respectful Green. Look at the Final Four point guards UNC (Lawson) MSU (Lucas) Villanova (Reynolds/Fisher) UConn (AJ Price) They beat these teams in the Elite 8 Oklahoma Louisville Pitt Missouri I would say not only did all the teams that got to the Final Four have great PGs, they had better point guards than the teams they beat. That’s an interesting point Respectful Green.

Look at the Final Four point guards
UNC (Lawson)
MSU (Lucas)
Villanova (Reynolds/Fisher)
UConn (AJ Price)

They beat these teams in the Elite 8
Oklahoma
Louisville
Pitt
Missouri

I would say not only did all the teams that got to the Final Four have great PGs, they had better point guards than the teams they beat.

]]> By: Respectful Green http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58254 Respectful Green Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:18:22 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58254 I don't know, Blav. You have a point of sorts. I wouldn't argue that Lucas is a more "well-rounded player" than Harris, no, probably not. However, come tourney time, I want the elite point guard who clearly isn't a wing (certainly true of Lucas) instead of the a guy who can play one position very well and the other adequately. I'm not sure "more well-rounded (/versatile) player" always translates into "more valuable player." The examples are obvious. Shaq circa 2001? Versatile? No. Valuable to winning. You bet. That's how I feel about Lucas vs. Harris. I don’t know, Blav. You have a point of sorts. I wouldn’t argue that Lucas is a more “well-rounded player” than Harris, no, probably not. However, come tourney time, I want the elite point guard who clearly isn’t a wing (certainly true of Lucas) instead of the a guy who can play one position very well and the other adequately.

I’m not sure “more well-rounded (/versatile) player” always translates into “more valuable player.” The examples are obvious. Shaq circa 2001? Versatile? No. Valuable to winning. You bet. That’s how I feel about Lucas vs. Harris.

]]> By: David http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58246 David Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:18:25 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58246 To buttress my last point about Michigan needing more scoring from Manny, here were the relative usage figures from last year: Manny Harris: 31.8% Kalin Lucas: 24.9% http://www.umhoops.com/2009/03/09/the-umhoops-all-big-ten-team/ To buttress my last point about Michigan needing more scoring from Manny, here were the relative usage figures from last year:

Manny Harris: 31.8%
Kalin Lucas: 24.9%

http://www.umhoops.com/2009/03.....-ten-team/

]]> By: Dylan http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58244 Dylan Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:15:08 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58244 Wonderful thoughts on three point shooting coming next week! It's a good point that Manny shot significantly more threes, but Kalin is also slightly more efficient and definitely a little more consistent. Wonderful thoughts on three point shooting coming next week!

It’s a good point that Manny shot significantly more threes, but Kalin is also slightly more efficient and definitely a little more consistent.

]]> By: David http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58243 David Fri, 23 Oct 2009 15:12:41 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58243 ZRL: Great point. I think the difference in 3pt shooting is probably exaggerated. Manny took 50% more threes than K. Lucas. My guess is that if you compared shot selection, Manny took a lot more threes with higher degree of difficulty. Although Manny can definitely work on his shot selection, part of the disparity in 3pt% is due shot selection as Michigan needs more scoring from Manny. ZRL: Great point. I think the difference in 3pt shooting is probably exaggerated.

Manny took 50% more threes than K. Lucas. My guess is that if you compared shot selection, Manny took a lot more threes with higher degree of difficulty.

Although Manny can definitely work on his shot selection, part of the disparity in 3pt% is due shot selection as Michigan needs more scoring from Manny.

]]> By: gpsimms http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58126 gpsimms Fri, 23 Oct 2009 01:55:53 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58126 Who are these Brian@mgoblog and KJ@theonlycolors people? We used to have intelligent discussion on this blog. Who are these Brian@mgoblog and KJ@theonlycolors people? We used to have intelligent discussion on this blog.

]]> By: ZRL http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58105 ZRL Thu, 22 Oct 2009 23:18:25 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58105 If you're going to point out that Manny's high rebounding numbers are partly due to the make-up of UM's roster, then you also have to point out that Manny's low 3pt% is also due to the make-up UM's roster. Most of Manny's 3's are guarded from beyond NBA range. This is partly due to the fact that he doesn't have anyone to take attention away from him and get him open looks. On the other hand, Kalin gets more open 3's because he has other players on MSU to take some of the D's focus off him. If you’re going to point out that Manny’s high rebounding numbers are partly due to the make-up of UM’s roster, then you also have to point out that Manny’s low 3pt% is also due to the make-up UM’s roster. Most of Manny’s 3’s are guarded from beyond NBA range. This is partly due to the fact that he doesn’t have anyone to take attention away from him and get him open looks. On the other hand, Kalin gets more open 3’s because he has other players on MSU to take some of the D’s focus off him.

]]> By: ToBlav http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58092 ToBlav Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:22:59 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58092 Maybe the real bottom line is that no one is saying Lucas is a better wing player than Harris. The fact that Harris is considered by some knowledgable people to be better, or even nearly as good aa Lucas at Lucas' position sounds like Harris is the more well rounded player. Maybe the real bottom line is that no one is saying Lucas is a better wing player than Harris. The fact that Harris is considered by some knowledgable people to be better, or even nearly as good aa Lucas at Lucas’ position sounds like Harris is the more well rounded player.

]]> By: KJ@theonlycolors http://www.umhoops.com/2009/10/22/on-harris-v-lucas/comment-page-1/#comment-58090 KJ@theonlycolors Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:03:17 +0000 http://www.umhoops.com/?p=5371#comment-58090 I think the one firm conclusion all parties involved in these proceedings can draw is that both teams are better off with the player they have than they would be with the one they don't. I think the one firm conclusion all parties involved in these proceedings can draw is that both teams are better off with the player they have than they would be with the one they don’t.

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